The following Q&A was completed as part of our conversational Commercial Real Estate FAQ Interview Series, we hope you find it helpful.
With 30 plus years of experience investing in commercial real estate, we discuss industrial commercial real estate investment with Robert Borris. From the latest trends in industrial commercial real estate, to what changes can be expected in the coming years, investors can benefit from the experience and wealth of knowledge that Robert Borris has amassed. Building your team, planning effective exit strategies, and the management of industrial real estate spaces provides a foundation for success in the industrial commercial real estate investment space.
Richard Wilson: Hello everybody, it’s Richard C. Wilson founder of CommercialRealEstate.com and The Family Office Club, and I’m excited here today to have Robert Borris with me. Welcome, Robert!
Robert Borris: Hello there.
Richard: So, Robert has over 30 years’ experience in real estate investing. He is a member of the Family Office Club and one of the commercial real estate power players at CommercialRealEstate.com. He’s spoken at several of our events, we’ve gotten to know each other over the last couple of years and today we’re going to go through 20 questions about industrial real estate, commercial real estate investing, and just kind of pick his brain like an intense cup of coffee with a friend so you guys can benefit from all of the experience that he’s gained over all these years. Is there anything you want to add to that, Robert? On your background or your focus?
Robert: Yeah, one of two things. I started really in the office leasing and development business, so I’ve done a lot of urban and suburban office building stuff and that migrated to medical office, and that for some weird reason evolved in to syndications and that evolved into industrial. So I’ve kind of been riding the wave as the wave keeps moving closer to the shore.
Richard: Right, right. Sure. Great. So my first question is what is industrial commercial real estate?
Robert: Industrial real estate is really a broad, broad category of real estate. It includes everything from factories to flex buildings to land to distribution centers and now it even is bumping up into the area of distribution centers and data centers, self-storage facilities, there’s all kinds of stuff that now are industrial real estate. But it all started with factories.
Richard: Right, right. And I know that space is very much growing in popularity right now, so. What are the various types of niche industrial real estate properties? Maybe there’s a couple types that people didn’t even know exist if they don’t work…
Robert: That’s a really good question because it’s becoming more and more fragmented into smaller and smaller subgroups. So there are, the area of real estate I’m most focused in are distribution buildings. Buildings that Amazon can rent, or an Amazon type company can rent, where they bring in goods from somewhere else, they store them, they rack them, and they distribute them to smaller users or even directly to the consumer. But there’s also, there’s now becoming subgroups like refrigerated warehouses are now becoming a sub-market, there’s a market now in mini self-storage facilities that investors are investing in, they’re just buying mini self-storage. There’s a very strong institutional investment community to speak of of data centers, especially around here in Northern Virginia. They’re a very very big business. There’s retail warehouses where they’re kind of like shopping things but they’re not shopping centers. Even recreation facilities are now warehouse focused – indoor sports cars, indoor badminton, indoor volley ball, indoor swimming, I mean all that stuff, these are all warehouses. And what I’m focused in on is a warehouse genre which is the most flexible you can get. So anything from storing Oreo cookies to playing – in one of my facilities we just leased 40,000 square feet to an indoor batting cage guy. This is just phenomenal, believe it or not. But, it’s the ability of choices and the ability to have lots options where you can rent this stuff out.
Richard: Great, sure. So, if someone is looking to lease out a industrial piece of real estate or distribution center, it could be a landlord it’s their first time putting together a lease or it could be someone looking to lease themselves, what are a few different ways to structure those types of leases in your experience?
Robert: Well, generally speaking a warehouse lease or an industrial lease is triple net, and tripe net meaning the tenant is responsible for paying the landlord the rent, and the landlord from that rent basically takes care of the building, takes care of the roof, takes care of exterior issues. The tenant is responsible for paying the real estate taxes, the insurance, and whatever operating costs they could incur. And those deals are typically shorter term, shorter term being less than 10 years, 3 years pretty typical – 3, 5, 10 years, those are pretty typical. Once you get longer in lease term, instead of a real estate deal, they become more of a financing vehicle for a company. And the structure of the deal is where the landlord, the tenant is responsible for basically everything, and they’re there for 10 years or 15 years or whatever, they send checks, and the rents are escalated 2 or 3% a year or factored with a CPI component or something like that.
And then there’s another hybrid, which is a really good investment for somebody who wants to have a passive real estate ownership, and that is what is called a bondable net lease. And a bondable net lease is when somebody leases they building and they guarantee to pay you the rent for the entire term of the lease, whether the building burns down or there’s another, or there’s a war, whatever it doesn’t matter what the reason is, they’ll just pay you the rent. And it’s, now you’re looking at a credit deal, it’s more important than real estate, it’s credit worthiness of the company. And that’s typically what you find in smaller buildings, in smaller tenants, landlord tends to be more responsible for more expenses. In a small deal you don’t want the tenant necessarily paying the real estate taxes because you want to make sure the real estate taxes get paid. In every case, though, the landlord is responsible for paying the mortgage, they normally don’t flip that over to the tenant.
Richard: Right, right. Okay, what are the investment risks or benefits of investing in industrial real estate or distribution centers?
Robert: Well, the benefits – there’s a number of real benefits. Number one industrial real estate is relatively easy to manage. Unlike multi-family, you don’t have day to day tenant issues like the water doesn’t work or the toilets don’t flush, or whatever. Unlike office buildings you don’t normally have elevators to deal with and complicated HVAC systems, so the real estate is pretty simple, pretty basic. The other benefits are it’s – since they’re basically big boxes, you want it as much of a box as you possibly can get, it’s kind of like owning a shoebox. People don’t throw away shoeboxes, because they’re kind of practical. So, there’s lots of flexibility, you can do lots of stuff in the building as I mentioned the batting cages I just leased 40,000 square feet to, the guy down the other end of the building sells commercial air conditioners. I mean, the diversification is really key and really the benefit. And being able to re-lease things to a variety of users is important, too. So you’re not stuck with a building you can’t rent. And the other good thing is generally speaking the rents escalate with inflation, it’s a great hedge against inflation. Buildings are highly financeable and it’s simple, I mean it’s not real complicated.
Richard: Right. Great. What is a typical valuation methods, or unique about the valuation of industrial real estate properties?
Robert: Well, that’s a great question, and it depends. In the appraisal business there are 3 methods of evaluating any piece of property. One is what are comparable sales, one of the unusual things about commercial real estate is not every building is the same even though they might be the same size, they could be very different, but comparable sales number one. Number two is what would it cost to replicate, if I had to go out and build this thing what would that cost me? And the third is based on income stream. So these three things are really very different from each other, so what you want to be able to look at a building and say “Okay, how much is this going to cost me to buy, bricks and mortar, and yet when I get done with it, what’s the income stream going to be worth?” They’re very different things, and that’s where the money is. It’s in between those two.
Richard: Right, okay. Great. What is the typical level of debt or leverage to apply in the industrial real estate space? Is it the normal 66-65%, is it higher? Lower?
Robert: It depends. It depends really – it’s a function of leasing and what is the leasing profile. Everything in the commercial real estate investment business and real estate business has to do with the rent, rent terms, and lease terms. If you have a building where you have a long term lease, 10 years let’s say, strong tenant, kind of like a triple net kind of a deal, I would have a lease term that basically amortizes the mortgage over the term of the lease. So, when the lease is up, the mortgage is zero. The reason for that is pretty simple, and that is – at the end of the lease term, if the tenant doesn’t renew, or even if the tenant does renew really, you can refinance the building, whatever improvement dollars you need if you need any, or brokerage commissions that you need to spend you can finance those, and you can finance your equity out. So, over 10 years, you’ve been getting some cash flow, you’ve been getting some depreciation and some tax benefits, but you paid off your mortgage, and now you own the building free and clear and that’s just cash flow. Big time.
Richard: Right, right, yeah.
Robert: So, in that case, in a multi-tenant situation, here again depending on the leasing, but I would be a lot more conservative than that generally speaking I’d probably do 50% because then when tenants vacate, you don’t necessarily turn it over instantly to the space. You can carry the building without any without a whole lot of stress I wouldn’t go any higher than 75%. Most banks wouldn’t let you anyway, but I wouldn’t go over 75%. 50 or 60-66, pretty conservative, that’s what I would do.
Richard: Okay, great. What advice do you have for companies listening to this interview that are looking to buy an industrial real estate asset for their balance sheet?
Robert: Say that again?
Richard: Oh, what advice for companies looking to buy an asset for their balance sheet that’s something industrial…
Robert: Well, the first thing is don’t overpay. Which is kind of logical, however you know as we’ve talked before paying fair market value is not necessarily bad, but I wouldn’t overpay that’s for sure. There’s an adage in the commercial real estate business as you may know “You make your money on the buy”. The money is in the buy, and that’s probably right because if your basis is low, you don’t want to sell it, you’re not going to sell at that low basis. That’s where the spread is, where you really make the money. The other thing is, look at a piece of real estate and say “how can I make this better?” You need to make a change of some type. It could be a physical change, it could be you kick out a bad tenant and bring in a new tenant, it could be kind of a change in zoning actually where you get more density out of the project, or you can add to the building, or fix the roof, there are people who have literally raised the roof in buildings – they bought the buildings and the buildings had interior clear height of 18 feet, and raised it to 30. That adds plenty of value, adding value can be as simple as managing the building well, too. I’ve seen that more often, I’m always surprised when I see that. So, that’s another one.
Another one is you want to buy in a growth area. All ships rise in, you know, go up in a rising tide or whatever the saying is. If you’re buying in a growth area, it’s great, if you’re buying in a non-growth area, you’re going to get the reverse. Which you don’t want of course. And I would say I would build a portfolio, I would look at a net investment like this not as a one off but as a potential to buy a multiple number of buildings and with the idea that the exit – that’s another item – the exit is critical. So when you buy the building think about how you’re going to exit. If you have multiple buildings of the same type, your exit is probably going to be easier. Not to mention it’s better to manage, you get to know what the real estate is really all about, what the market is – I mean, you learn a lot in the same period of time. But this way you develop a portfolio and at the end of the day you could, perhaps, sell the portfolio and get a premium for that also because institutions like to buy in bulk, basically.
Richard: Right, yep, for sure. Good point. Are there any unique due diligence insights when it comes to industrial real estate that you could share with us?
Robert: There are a few. One is you really need to do an environmental study. If the seller doesn’t have one – you can’t finance a building today without an environmental study, it’s called a phase one environmental study. And if the seller doesn’t have one, you ought to ask the question “Well, why?” But if they don’t, you have to have one done. And number two, if they have one, what you can easily do is go to back to the same engineering firm that did the study, and it’s called a bring to date, and they’ll take the study they already did and just research it, it’s a pretty simple process really it’s just a study, not a site study, just a study of what’s happened in the area and is there anything that could have happened to change the environmental condition.
Richard: Right.
Robert: I’ve always known in advance, frankly, it would need to – phase one would indicate it needs a phase two. Phase two means they’re going to go in and dig around in the dirt and look for bad stuff, I’d keep away from that unless you know what you’re getting into when you do that. So that’s, environmental is really really important and they can be very expensive to fix environmental problems. Not that you shouldn’t do it, but if you do it you’ve got to know what you’re doing really.
Richard: Right.
Robert: Other thing is talk to all the tenants in the building. You should have somebody either you or somebody working for you or with you to do this. Talk to all the tenants in the building, you might be surprised at what you might find. I bought a building years ago where, Big tenant, I don’t know 600,000 square foot tenant, we bought the building because the tenant was moving out and we talked to the tenant and the tenant says “Yeah, we’re moving out but we don’t want to move out. We want to renew, but we couldn’t get the landlord to talk to us.” Okay, well, let’s renew the lease. That’s instant value, that’s instant value add.
Richard: Yeah, right.
Robert: The third one is really kind of inspect the building, inspect the spaces. I’ve seen buildings where there is a tenant in the tenant roster and you walk into the space and there’s nobody there, I’ve seen that. I’ve seen a tenant who was there but wasn’t doing any business, you know that’s not good. You never know what you might find if you don’t talk to all the tenants and inspect all the spaces. It’s a hands on, definitely a hands on boots on the ground kind of activity.
Richard: Sure.
Robert: And the last thing I would do is, it’s really critical, is I would review expenses. And it’s easy to do meaning because what you’re looking for is anomalies. If there are legal expenses in the expenses relative to operating the building or engineering expenses, does that mean there’s a problem that they’re looking into that they decided not to address? Now it’s the exceptions to the rules that you want to know. Not the rules itself, you know, they’re pretty consistent. And when you have the building inspected, does the building meet current ADA and environmental rules because those change and those can be expensive to fix under certain circumstances.
Richard: Right, right. Makes sense. What would be a passive investor’s experience – their idea was they wanted to get into a passive type of real estate, and they hear that industrial is relatively low management burden after they acquire – how many times per year, or how often are you interacting with tenants as an owner of an industrial piece of property?
Robert: And again it depends. If your investment is you’re buying a single tenant building, building with one tenant in it that’s net leased where they’re paying real estate taxes and the insurance and all you’re doing is fixing the roof if the roof needs to be fixed or foundations and things like that, your involvement with the tenant is almost zero. Unless there’s a problem of some sort and even then it’s not too detailed, so it can be easy. So you buy a building that’s leased for 8 or 9 years to, you know, there’s a whole host of people – tractor supply, Verizon, they do warehousing or a data center for example, a data center you don’t do anything. I mean zero. It’s just an economic deal. If the building has got smaller tenants in it and has leasing, you may not be contacting the tenants, but you will be interacting with property management people and leasing people. So, the smaller the tenants, the more the work. However, the more the profit, too, possibly. Probably.
Richard: Right, makes sense. What are some ways that you can add value to an industrial real estate property as an investment firm?
Robert: Well, here again, adding value really comes in effective management, making some kind of change – physical, economic, legal sometimes – are that’s where you really get some value added to properties. And that’s what you want to look for. You want to look for, there’s a term in the real estate business called “value add” where you can add something to the property. Sometimes properties are sold as not a value add, and they turn out to be value adds and that’s good actually, that can be very good.
Richard: Right, makes sense. What makes for an effective warehouse, industrial, or distribution center commercial real estate broker? Because you’ve been in the real estate space a long time, and I’m sure you’ve worked with some brokers who are great, and some that you never want to work with again, so what makes for a great one in the space of industrial?
Robert: Well, if you never want to work with a guy again, that’s a good example of what you don’t want. First of all real estate, the real estate business has changed a lot in the past 20 years in the sense that brokers depend more now on other brokers than they ever have. You put the building out for lease with a broker and the broker is going to – the brokers don’t make cold calls anymore because most tenants hire a broker to represent them in leasing or finding whatever it is they need. So what you really want, and this is item number one, you want a broker that understands other brokers and has a good reputation with other brokers. I was once looking to hire a broker to lease a project for me and I talked to a bunch of other brokers and said “What do you think of this guy?” “Ah, this guy is really bad news.” You don’t want that guy, he’ll discourage, other brokers won’t work with him.
Richard: Right.
Robert: So, that’s one. The second thing you need is you need a broker with a real knowledge in the market. Where they understand what the deals are being traded at, what the concessions are, who’s moving around so that you can approach them. You want to see every deal. You don’t necessarily want to make every deal, but you want to see every deal. Even if you don’t make the deal, you want to understand why did the other guy want to make the deal, what was critical about it? That’s really important.
And obviously, this goes without saying, the guy has to have impeccable reputation as far as honesty, integrity, and things like that. That’s, in my opinion that’s absolutely critical. And they’ve got to be problem solvers. Dealing with other people can be challenging, and you need somebody that can sit through and deal with them and manage expectations and it can be like, I mean it’s kind of like wrestling with an alligator. It can be really really challenging, and you need somebody who can kind of deal with that.
Richard: Right, sure. What would you say is the number one thing that you have learned over the past 30 plus years working in real estate and working in real estate investments? What’s the most important thing you’ve learned?
Robert: The most important thing is there are properties that will never lease. I don’t want to say ever sell, but ever lease. I was at an auction, actually it was an office building one day years ago, and I’m dealing with an investor client of mine and he asked the question – it was a nice office building – “Is it possible that you could never lease this?” and I had to think about that for a second. And the answer is well, yeah.
And part two of that, there’s a second part to that, just because you might be able to lease a building it may not be economically feasible to lease a building. Because the cost to lease the building alone will not, the rents you could get would not justify the cost to lease it. A little bit more appropriate in an office building environment than a warehouse environment, but to give you an example I’ll give you an example in an office environment because it’s easier to see. And that is if you have an empty office building and tenant says “I need new improvements.” I’ll give you a 5 year lease, new improvements, and the rent is $20 a square foot. The improvements alone could cost you $70 a square foot to do number one, and at a ten cap that’s $7 a foot, a building to operate could cost $10 a square foot, now you’re at $17, and then you have a brokerage commission that could be $10, so now you’re at $18-19 a square foot just to pay – and you haven’t bought the building yet. So, that is possible. Not as much as in industrial but it is possible in industrial if you have the building or some kind of environmental problem that’s really expensive to fix. So that’s something you really have to pay attention to.
And the last thing is you shouldn’t put your real estate on autopilot. You should watch it. I mean, go visit it once in a while, you never know what you’re going to see, go visit it once in a while. Pay attention to property management reports, you want to know why there are aberrations when things pop up. You know when you have a problem like what we’re just going through with this covid thing, you know the first dozen phone calls I got were about people who said I can’t afford to pay the rent. You still have to pay the mortgage, so you’ve got to deal with that kind of stuff. You can’t be blind to it.
Richard: Sure. If you were mentoring somebody, what advice would you give them if they’re just now starting their commercial real estate investment career? Or endeavor. It could be they already have a successful career as a doctor, but now they’re just starting to invest in commercial real estate.
Robert: You need to kind of build a small team. This is really kind of a team sport in the sense that you need some people that you can depend upon for honest information. The team isn’t complicated, it’s not hard to do, but the team is a lawyer, I would really focus on a real estate attorney because I’ve had lots of problems with attorneys that don’t understand real estate. They argue about the wrong things. They waste your time on stuff that’s not important and they miss the important things. Second thing is if you have somebody that you can rely on for some real estate advice, not a residential real estate broker, but somebody that’s got some experience, friends or whatever, other investors that you bounce ideas off of. That’s another thing I would suggest. And then you need a small group of people you can outsource, people who can do property condition reports, and civil engineers, and an architect maybe, that you can just – a lot of people will respect your time just to help you out. But you need to have a small team because they know that they can save you, make you tons of money, and worth whatever you pay them. And as I said a lot of the times they won’t charge you.
Richard: Right, right. What is the most expensive lesson you’ve learned, or watched somebody learn, the hard way that could easily be avoided?
Robert: I’ve seen people buy stuff you couldn’t lease. If you can’t lease it – there’s two things really – if you can’t lease it it’s not worth anything. You’ve got to put stuff in the buildings, you’ve got to – and the reason why they weren’t paying attention to why the building couldn’t lease. Industrial buildings don’t lease for functional obsolescence, they don’t lease because driveways aren’t wide enough for tractor trailers, I once saw a warehouse project where you couldn’t get a tractor trailer in the trailer court at all, or you couldn’t get access, or there are problems that if they would’ve asked somebody, even a broker industrial broker, they would’ve said. Here’s a good item, if a building is empty and you’re looking into buying an empty building, call up 2 or 3 industrial brokers in the market and say “I’m buying, I’m thinking of buying this building…” I would actually have the building under contract before doing that, to be honest with you. “Why hasn’t this building leased?” and let them talk, because they’ll tell you. So, you’ve got to ask them.
Richard: Right, yeah, I think that’s super helpful I appreciate that. What is the number one counterintuitive insight on commercial property investing that you could share with listeners?
Robert: Well, there’s a couple. One is there are other ways to buy real estate other than by contract purchase. You can buy somebody’s bad debt. If you go to a bank, banks when things get bad I think there’s going to be some of that floating around in this period while we’re dealing with this covid situation, where you can buy bad debt. Debt that the borrower has defaulted, or they can’t get it refinanced, or whatever, you need to understand the reason why the debt is bad. First of all, if you’re buying bad debt, and the lender and the borrower is already in default, you’re basically buying the real estate at 75% or whatever the leverage was. That’s part one, and part two if you buy the debt at a discount, you’re even getting a better deal and sometimes all that’s needed is just a new basis. You can overpay, unfortunately, in the recession I had this problem. I didn’t overpay, but because values went down so much so quickly, in effect I did overpay. And that happens. Not every deal works.
Richard: Right, okay. After investing in commercial real estate for so long, are there a couple of tools or software resources or databases that you really rely upon quite often?
Robert: Well, I’m a big believer in Excel to do spreadsheets and things like that. But anybody who knows Excel at all, you have to know how to use it, it’s not brainless. There is a program used widely in the institutional arena to evaluate properties called Argas. Argas is a prompting, self-prompting, kind of economic analysis type of program. I don’t particularly care for it and the reason, two reasons, number one I’ve taken three classes on how to use Argas and after the teacher said, you know, “Here are the parameters. Did everybody get 25,337,000? Show me your hands who got the number.” Nobody raised their hand, which means nobody got it. Bunch of smart people in the room, or pretty smart people, nobody gets the answer you know there’s something about the program. The other assumption that Argas does, which is good for institutions and it’s good for multi-family, here’s a critical assumption error and the assumption is if you have a tenant in an industrial building that occupies the whole building, he will either renew the lease or he won’t. You either have 100% or you’ve got zero. You don’t say “Well, there’s a 75% probability they’ll renew, so I’ll ascribe 75% to it.” That’s ridiculous. That’s true maybe when you have hundreds of tenants, but if you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 10 tenants, you need to dig deeper than that, and you have to make your own assumption. You have a tenant or don’t you have a tenant? I mean, that’s a little problematic.
The other tool that’s really good is, well pretty good, is CoStar. CoStar is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and their databases are getting bigger all the time, and you can do a lot of research relative to CoStar. However, I wouldn’t swear by it, it’s a good guide, but it’s certainly not a bible. It does help. The third bit of advice is you need to have a good assistant, that’s really good because they can do a lot of legwork for you and go to the properties, and look at it, and take pictures, talk to people and it’s, you know, and that could really be a big help to you.
Richard: Right, sure. Just two questions left here, so what do you see as the number one biggest change coming to commercial real estate?
Robert: Well one of the biggest changes is going to be accounting changes. The board of accountancy is announcing, and I don’t know the status of this but it will have a big impact, and that is corporations will have to account for leases as if they’re like mortgages. Where as right now, they can sign a 10 year lease and all they do is they deduct the rent every year. They don’t have to – they can footnote the fact that they have a 10 year lease and an obligation of multi millions of dollars – they’re changing that and that’s going to have an impact on the length of lease terms that companies are going to want to buy. Actually, it could provide for a very good opportunity because a corporation would then benefit most from a one year lease.
Richard: Right.
Robert: Because that’s all they have a bunch of non-obligatory renewal options.
Richard: Right.
Robert: But you can charge more rent on a one year lease, and they’ll probably pay it because it’ll be worth it to them.
Richard: Right.
Robert: And most companies don’t pick up and move very quickly. So that’s an opportunity that could present itself. A very nice one, actually. That’s going to be the biggest one. Deals are going to get bigger. Buildings are going to get bigger. Tenants are going to get bigger. That’s also what’s going to happen, that’s been happening for years now.
Richard: Sure, great. And my final question here, if somebody wanted to really excel in the world of commercial property investing what principles should they work by in this industry?
Robert: To really excel, create a portfolio of like properties, and the reason I say that there are numerous reasons. As I said before, previously, and that is you need to understand the exit and if you have a portfolio of these properties and you can sell to an institution 25 warehouse properties totaling 5 million square feet, that’s a very attractive thing. But the other things, the other benefits of that are numerous. Number one you can fine tune your team, and your acquisition team, because you’ve done it previously numerous times, you get to know the nuances of dealing with these properties, and what I’ve seen every successful real estate entity has with consistently is they focused on one type of property and they understand the nuance. That’s really, that’s kind of a hidden benefit really. They know how to structure leases, they know how to deal with problems, you know. For example, I’ll give you a good example, and that is when things get bad and you have tenants that are going to want to, that are going to go bankrupt you want to negotiate them out of your deal, you want to negotiate their lease out before they go bankrupt. Because otherwise you have a tenant in possession with no rent coming in. But that’s the kind of nuance I’m kind of talking about…
Richard: Right.
Robert: And also financing issues. There’s all kinds of reasons to do that. And if you notice Wall Street is becoming more and more like that, that’s for the same reason. They, these big retes and all that, they’re not diversified property types. They’re all single property types. Diverse by geography, maybe, but not by property type.
Richard: Right, yeah, couldn’t agree more. There’s just hundreds of nuances you pick up and that’s where your competitive edge comes from. Versus the people who haven’t learned that yet, or have dissipated their energy across 20 areas, so I think that’s a great point. I’m really glad that came up in our interview kind of naturally because that’s something that I’m always trying to communicate through our platforms that I see that as well very very often. So great, Robert, I appreciate all of your time here today if anybody needs to get a hold directly of you of course they can come through us and I’m happy to make the connection – is there a website, or a LinkedIn, profile, or e-mail address you’d want them to reach out to you in case they have a question for you directly?
Robert: I do a multitude of things. My e-mail address is pretty simple Rob Borris, R-O-B B-O-R-R-I-S, so it’s two B’s and two R’s, at MSN.com. And you can do that, I’m on LinkedIn, I’ve got two entities Strategen Partners, which is a, where I help high net worth and family offices do their thing. And workspace property group, which is a development operating and syndicating arm for real estate. So one is real estate focused, and one is people focused.
Richard: Great, excellent. Yeah and if anyone has trouble getting in touch with Robert just let me know and I’m happy to get you connected and thank you again for your time here today, that was great.
Robert: Thank you for having me!
Richard: Good, thank you.
